Question of the Day: When recording information from a Census Record (US Federal for example) do you record the DATE at the top of that Census Page in your Residence FACT for that person?
But, do you put the Residence Fact DATE as the date at the top of the Census Record?
I totally agree with the Citation Clean up (accessed dd mmm yyyy)
I didn't for a very long time, but it has become more important, to me, for the TimeLine to record, in the DATE field for that Residence Fact the Date that the Census Was Taken.
I used to just enter the Year, then changed to the "official" date for that Census Year, but have changed to look at the date on the Census Page and enter that.
Yup, I have clean up to do, but it has paid off a couple of times. Especially when some one was recorded TWICE in the SAME Census year, in two locations. One in New York, the other in New Jersey. The family moved. So that Census DATE was very important for the Residence FACT
My father's family was recorded in two separate locations, even though one was my father's home, and one was his mother's home. My guess is that my father was visiting his mother on census enumeration day.
Russ Worthington Yes - In the DATE field for the RESIDENCE fact I modify the year that merges in from Ancestry and I make it the enumeration date written at the top of the census. I, too, have had people enumerated more than once in two different locations. In one instance that I recall, one of my gr-grandparents was first enumerated in his parents' household and then a month later was enumerated in the household of his in-laws with his new wife. Those dates helped me identify the time period when they were married.
When I mentioned my citation clean-up, I wasn't referring to entering an accessed date, but what I meant was that I modify this date at the same time that I am cleaning up my source citation since I have the image open and I am entering numerous other details from it such as dwelling number, family number, etc.
Citing the enumeration date has also helped me figure out death dates if I had a "death date year" in a census year already but no actual date to ballpark in. I also used the enumeration date for figuring out when an infant child 's birth month may be if they are born in the census year as well.
The only one for which I record the actual enumeration date is 1850 because, although the effective date was June 1, often the enumeration date was October or November and many people would not be accurate in remembering who was there on such a distant date so I suspect the data is mixed. For the remainder of the census records up to 1930, particularly since the information could have been given by a neighbor as to who WAS there on June 1, there is no assurance that the family was, in fact, residing in that location on the enumeration date. For the 1940 census, since the informant was to be identified, you would have a better handle on whether your family members were actually present or not. I have a great aunt who was enumerated twice - once in Missouri and once in Kansas. I have no current way of interpreting in which of those places they actually lived on June 1 or on the date of enumeration, although I do know from other records they had been living in Missouri and later lived in the Kansas location - and she is only one example of double enumerations.
What DO YOU Record for the Residence Fact, in the Date Field, for 1930 and earlier?
In your example, the Date on the Census Record, for me at least, would be very helpful. To expand on your 1930 - 1940 informant comment, again, I agree with you. But, the Category of the census record for 1930 and earlier would not be Primary, Secondary, but Indeterminable,
For me, to record that Date, helps identify conflicting information as well. Like your example and mine. I would, as you did, look deeper into what really happened in that point in time.
I don't actually record a 'Residence' fact for census records. I record a 'Census' event. The date I use is the effective date of the census, except for 1850; 1860, 1870, 1880 and 1900 are June 1. 1910 is April 15, 1920 is January 1 and 1930 and 1940 are April 1. The census enumerators were to ask all questions as if the questions were being asked on those effective dates. I think we can safely assume some enumerators either didn't ask properly and some respondents didn't reply correctly, but after the fact, we have no choice but to assume the answers given reflect the effective dates - although we should bring our whole mind to the evaluation process, we should expect most enumerators followed the instructoins that were impressed on them. I record all the information from the census record for every person in the household and copy the record to each person in the household. Here is a sample from a 1900 census record:
Joseph Keithley, head, Oct 18 1853, 46, married 8 years, born in Wisconsin, father in Missouri, mother in Ohio; occupation: groceryman, owns home with a mortgage, can read, write and speak English Sarah S. Keithley, wife, Aug 1859, 40, married 8 years, mother of 3/1 children [Arthur and Susana are listed - was only one of them hers and/or from other marriages?], born in Missouri, father in Virginia, mother in Kentucky, can read and write Eva Keithley, daughter, Jany 1883, 17, single, born in Illinois, father in Wisconsin, mother in Ohio, attended school 7 months, can read and write Leo Keithley, son, Nov 1884, 15, born in Illinois, father in Wisconsin, mother in Ohio, occupation: salesman grocery, can read and write, did not attend school Arthur Keithley, son, Nov 1893, 6, born in Illinois, father in Illinois, mother in Kentucky [inconsistent with other information] Susana Keithley, daughter, June 1895, 4, born in Missouri, father in Illinois, mother in Kentucky [again, inconsistent with other information. W. R. Keithley, Uncle, Sep 1825, 75, born in Missouri, father in Missouri, mother in North Carolina, occupation: lawyer, can read and write Thomas N. Todd, Head, Aug 1864, married, born in Illinois as were both parents; occupation: jeweler, owns home with a mortgage, can read and write Violet B. Todd, wife, Nov 1881, 18, married 10/12, mother of 0/0 children; born in Illinois, father in Wisconsin, mother in Ohio, can read and write Jesse A. Todd, son, May 1888, 12, born in Kansas, father in Illinois, mother in Kentucky, attended school 7 months, can read and write Clarence W. Todd, son, Sept 1890, 9, born in Kansas, father in Illinois, mother in Kentucky, attended school 7 months, can read and write
By recording in this way, if I pull up the census record for any person in the household I have all the details for the whole record. Most of my ancestors were farmers; occasionally, if an occupation differs significantly from others in the area or other family members, I may make an 'Occupation' fact separate from the census record.
Question 1: What program do you use to Record the information you provided? Where in that program to you put it?
Question 2: What is a Census Record? Trying to understand why you use the Census Fact.
Having asked that, Family Tree Maker Version 16 and earlier would use Census as a Fact. But newer versions and the Web Merge Feature encourages us to use the Residence Fact.
Thus the reason for my question.
My question about Occupation: What Information do you put into the Date Field, if you enter a date, Location, and Description for information from a Census Record. (ONLY CENSUS Records)?
My primary program is Legacy; I have FTM 2014 but generally use it only for syncing my Ancestry tree. I know Ancestry (and therefore FTM) automates the census records under the label 'Residence' but it's not my preference as a label [I do not change the label in FTM - it would be too much trouble because I have over 15,000 people in my Ancestry tree and I have multiple census records for most of them]. Because the census record was primarily for the purpose of giving state and federal governments information on demographics for the purpose of understanding differing economic, educational, social issues and for deciding political boundaries, etc., I have chosen to label it as the type of record - census - rather than as a residence since residence was only one aspect of the information being provided. When I choose to list an occupation, the label is 'Occupation' and the source would then be a census record or a city directory, etc. As to the date for a census source, it would be the effective date of the census.
Just so that others understand what you are posted, Clooz is more of a document management program that might support a person or genealogy database management program, like Family Tree Maker. Am I close?
Russ Worthington Glad to amplify, Russ. The original intent of Clooz 1.0 by Liz Kerstens back in the mid 90's was document organization for filing and fast retrieval (most were paper copies back then), but the program also included the core characteristic of linking each individual in a document to a Template designed for each specific document type. Hence the Template that you see in the ref'd Blog post. That post; however, is probably not a really good example because I actually describe a process that "breaks the rules" for purists by actually linking "presumed" names. In a future update we can hopefully clean this up in some formal way so that "suppositions" can be entered and clearly be identifiable as such. However, that post demonstrates the flexibility of the program.
Since Rich and I took over in 2012, we have implemented processes that move Clooz 3 into the realm of a NON COMPETITOR to the standard family tree programs, but rather as a tool where a user first takes a really hard look at each document in order to squeeze every clue out of it. So it is a research and analysis tool that gives users the opportunity to record and analyze "potential" ancestors before adding corrupt data to a formal family tree.
There are far too many improvements to list here, but interested viewers are invited to view the series of videos on our web site and to download the free PDF User Guide.
Some new users have a problem wrapping their arms around Clooz because it is not the standard genealogy model that most are used to. In Clooz, the basic element is the document, with the individuals ref'd in it then being linked to it. This creates a database that can be viewed in our unique Composite View, where every instance of an individual, regardless of the document source, is available for immediate review and analysis, including the document images themselves. We present this data in a familiar tree structure where the user can drill down as many as five levels deep for thorough research. If errors or additions are found, they can be handled at this time.
Since document images are key, Rich developed a really cool routine that will quickly find disconnected documents and allow the user to reconnect them to the proper template. We all know what an annoyance it is when something that we linked months or years ago gets moved, and suddenly the links don't work.
Perhaps the most exciting new developement is our interface to Legacy. It is really sweet!! I am going to write a Blog post on it and I'll let you know when it's published. But if folks are Legacy users, they REALLY need to take a good look at Clooz 3.3. No data double entry!
I have Clooz, and have had it since Liz did the early work on the program.
It is a "different" way of looking at the information that we are looking at.
Exciting to hear about the interface to Legacy. I saw that on your website when I found that example (probably a poor choice), but thank you for the links to the Videos. Perhaps other members of the community will want to look at Clooz 3.3 a little closer.
For me, listing of an Occupation would be a piece of information [fact] and labeled as 'Occupation;' the citation/source would be listed as a census record, or a city directory or a story told as personal knowledge, or from a book, etc.
Let me try again, as to WHAT you enter for the Occupation FACT (piece of information)
Doesn't Legacy have the Fact Name, a Date, a Location/Place, and a Description field?
The field names may be different, but information that expands or gives more details to the Occupation.
Occupation: 1940 Chester County, Pennsylvania Farmer
I am trying to understand what and how you (or anyone) uses information in at 1940 US Federal Census. I get it that it will be documented with a Citation, but what do you enter into your Database, Legacy in your case?
Yes, Legacy has fields and a label. Here's one for my father for the 1940 census with the 'Occupation' label. I have listed the actual occupation in the 'Description' field. Event/Fact: Occupation Description: Taxi Driver Date: 1 Apr 1940 Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, Oklahoma, United States
Yes. I update the date that merges in from Ancestry.com as a step in my source citation cleanup in FTM2014.
ReplyDeleteYes, the Clooz templates that I use call for entry of the actual enumeration date and provide a field.
ReplyDeleteKaren Jaquish
ReplyDeleteBut, do you put the Residence Fact DATE as the date at the top of the Census Record?
I totally agree with the Citation Clean up (accessed dd mmm yyyy)
I didn't for a very long time, but it has become more important, to me, for the TimeLine to record, in the DATE field for that Residence Fact the Date that the Census Was Taken.
I used to just enter the Year, then changed to the "official" date for that Census Year, but have changed to look at the date on the Census Page and enter that.
Yup, I have clean up to do, but it has paid off a couple of times. Especially when some one was recorded TWICE in the SAME Census year, in two locations. One in New York, the other in New Jersey. The family moved. So that Census DATE was very important for the Residence FACT
Thank you
Russ
My father's family was recorded in two separate locations, even though one was my father's home, and one was his mother's home. My guess is that my father was visiting his mother on census enumeration day.
ReplyDeleteRuss Worthington
ReplyDeleteYes - In the DATE field for the RESIDENCE fact I modify the year that merges in from Ancestry and I make it the enumeration date written at the top of the census. I, too, have had people enumerated more than once in two different locations. In one instance that I recall, one of my gr-grandparents was first enumerated in his parents' household and then a month later was enumerated in the household of his in-laws with his new wife. Those dates helped me identify the time period when they were married.
When I mentioned my citation clean-up, I wasn't referring to entering an accessed date, but what I meant was that I modify this date at the same time that I am cleaning up my source citation since I have the image open and I am entering numerous other details from it such as dwelling number, family number, etc.
Karen Jaquish
ReplyDeleteAwesome. Thank you
Russ
Absolutely Cousin Russ. It's the only day you can document your ancestor residing there. You assume they were living there in the between times.
ReplyDeleteAnn Royal
ReplyDeleteThank you
Russ
Citing the enumeration date has also helped me figure out death dates if I had a "death date year" in a census year already but no actual date to ballpark in. I also used the enumeration date for figuring out when an infant child 's birth month may be if they are born in the census year as well.
ReplyDeleteMagda N - Do you look at the TimeLine feature to help with this?
ReplyDeleteRuss
The only one for which I record the actual enumeration date is 1850 because, although the effective date was June 1, often the enumeration date was October or November and many people would not be accurate in remembering who was there on such a distant date so I suspect the data is mixed. For the remainder of the census records up to 1930, particularly since the information could have been given by a neighbor as to who WAS there on June 1, there is no assurance that the family was, in fact, residing in that location on the enumeration date. For the 1940 census, since the informant was to be identified, you would have a better handle on whether your family members were actually present or not. I have a great aunt who was enumerated twice - once in Missouri and once in Kansas. I have no current way of interpreting in which of those places they actually lived on June 1 or on the date of enumeration, although I do know from other records they had been living in Missouri and later lived in the Kansas location - and she is only one example of double enumerations.
ReplyDeleteDonna Willis Brown
ReplyDeleteThank you for your solid reasoning.
What DO YOU Record for the Residence Fact, in the Date Field, for 1930 and earlier?
In your example, the Date on the Census Record, for me at least, would be very helpful. To expand on your 1930 - 1940 informant comment, again, I agree with you. But, the Category of the census record for 1930 and earlier would not be Primary, Secondary, but Indeterminable,
For me, to record that Date, helps identify conflicting information as well. Like your example and mine. I would, as you did, look deeper into what really happened in that point in time.
Thank you,
Russ
Russ, Yes I do as well as the occupation if it is listed. Claire
ReplyDeleteClaire V Brisson-Banks
ReplyDeleteOccupation ... What ALL do you record, from a Census Record about the Occupation IF listed?
Russ
I don't actually record a 'Residence' fact for census records. I record a 'Census' event. The date I use is the effective date of the census, except for 1850; 1860, 1870, 1880 and 1900 are June 1. 1910 is April 15, 1920 is January 1 and 1930 and 1940 are April 1. The census enumerators were to ask all questions as if the questions were being asked on those effective dates. I think we can safely assume some enumerators either didn't ask properly and some respondents didn't reply correctly, but after the fact, we have no choice but to assume the answers given reflect the effective dates - although we should bring our whole mind to the evaluation process, we should expect most enumerators followed the instructoins that were impressed on them. I record all the information from the census record for every person in the household and copy the record to each person in the household. Here is a sample from a 1900 census record:
ReplyDeleteJoseph Keithley, head, Oct 18 1853, 46, married 8 years, born in Wisconsin, father in Missouri, mother in Ohio; occupation: groceryman, owns home with a mortgage, can read, write and speak English
Sarah S. Keithley, wife, Aug 1859, 40, married 8 years, mother of 3/1 children [Arthur and Susana are listed - was only one of them hers and/or from other marriages?], born in Missouri, father in Virginia, mother in Kentucky, can read and write
Eva Keithley, daughter, Jany 1883, 17, single, born in Illinois, father in Wisconsin, mother in Ohio, attended school 7 months, can read and write
Leo Keithley, son, Nov 1884, 15, born in Illinois, father in Wisconsin, mother in Ohio, occupation: salesman grocery, can read and write, did not attend school
Arthur Keithley, son, Nov 1893, 6, born in Illinois, father in Illinois, mother in Kentucky [inconsistent with other information]
Susana Keithley, daughter, June 1895, 4, born in Missouri, father in Illinois, mother in Kentucky [again, inconsistent with other information.
W. R. Keithley, Uncle, Sep 1825, 75, born in Missouri, father in Missouri, mother in North Carolina, occupation: lawyer, can read and write
Thomas N. Todd, Head, Aug 1864, married, born in Illinois as were both parents; occupation: jeweler, owns home with a mortgage, can read and write
Violet B. Todd, wife, Nov 1881, 18, married 10/12, mother of 0/0 children; born in Illinois, father in Wisconsin, mother in Ohio, can read and write
Jesse A. Todd, son, May 1888, 12, born in Kansas, father in Illinois, mother in Kentucky, attended school 7 months, can read and write
Clarence W. Todd, son, Sept 1890, 9, born in Kansas, father in Illinois, mother in Kentucky, attended school 7 months, can read and write
By recording in this way, if I pull up the census record for any person in the household I have all the details for the whole record. Most of my ancestors were farmers; occasionally, if an occupation differs significantly from others in the area or other family members, I may make an 'Occupation' fact separate from the census record.
Donna Willis Brown
ReplyDeleteThank you. Couple of questions
Question 1: What program do you use to Record the information you provided? Where in that program to you put it?
Question 2: What is a Census Record? Trying to understand why you use the Census Fact.
Having asked that, Family Tree Maker Version 16 and earlier would use Census as a Fact. But newer versions and the Web Merge Feature encourages us to use the Residence Fact.
Thus the reason for my question.
My question about Occupation: What Information do you put into the Date Field, if you enter a date, Location, and Description for information from a Census Record. (ONLY CENSUS Records)?
Russ
My primary program is Legacy; I have FTM 2014 but generally use it only for syncing my Ancestry tree. I know Ancestry (and therefore FTM) automates the census records under the label 'Residence' but it's not my preference as a label [I do not change the label in FTM - it would be too much trouble because I have over 15,000 people in my Ancestry tree and I have multiple census records for most of them]. Because the census record was primarily for the purpose of giving state and federal governments information on demographics for the purpose of understanding differing economic, educational, social issues and for deciding political boundaries, etc., I have chosen to label it as the type of record - census - rather than as a residence since residence was only one aspect of the information being provided. When I choose to list an occupation, the label is 'Occupation' and the source would then be a census record or a city directory, etc. As to the date for a census source, it would be the effective date of the census.
ReplyDeleteDonna Willis Brown
ReplyDeleteThank you. I got it.
Let me see if I really do have it.
The only information that you record from a US Federal Census Record, is that you have a Census Record for that Person.
If that Census Record has the occupation for that person, you will record it as Occupation.
IF that is true, what information do you put in the Fields associated with Occupation (Again, only from that Census Record)
Russ
Clooz by Ancestral Systems, LLC
ReplyDeleteJust so that others understand what you are posted, Clooz is more of a document management program that might support a person or genealogy database management program, like Family Tree Maker. Am I close?
An example might be here
http://clooz.com/clooz_blog.php?pid=28&p=&search=#blt
I know that isn't a 1940 Census, but that is what you provide to a user, right?
Just trying to clarify those who might be reading this Post.
Thank you,
Russ
Russ Worthington Glad to amplify, Russ. The original intent of Clooz 1.0 by Liz Kerstens back in the mid 90's was document organization for filing and fast retrieval (most were paper copies back then), but the program also included the core characteristic of linking each individual in a document to a Template designed for each specific document type. Hence the Template that you see in the ref'd Blog post. That post; however, is probably not a really good example because I actually describe a process that "breaks the rules" for purists by actually linking "presumed" names. In a future update we can hopefully clean this up in some formal way so that "suppositions" can be entered and clearly be identifiable as such. However, that post demonstrates the flexibility of the program.
ReplyDeleteSince Rich and I took over in 2012, we have implemented processes that move Clooz 3 into the realm of a NON COMPETITOR to the standard family tree programs, but rather as a tool where a user first takes a really hard look at each document in order to squeeze every clue out of it. So it is a research and analysis tool that gives users the opportunity to record and analyze "potential" ancestors before adding corrupt data to a formal family tree.
There are far too many improvements to list here, but interested viewers are invited to view the series of videos on our web site and to download the free PDF User Guide.
http://www.clooz.com/
Some new users have a problem wrapping their arms around Clooz because it is not the standard genealogy model that most are used to. In Clooz, the basic element is the document, with the individuals ref'd in it then being linked to it. This creates a database that can be viewed in our unique Composite View, where every instance of an individual, regardless of the document source, is available for immediate review and analysis, including the document images themselves. We present this data in a familiar tree structure where the user can drill down as many as five levels deep for thorough research. If errors or additions are found, they can be handled at this time.
Since document images are key, Rich developed a really cool routine that will quickly find disconnected documents and allow the user to reconnect them to the proper template. We all know what an annoyance it is when something that we linked months or years ago gets moved, and suddenly the links don't work.
Perhaps the most exciting new developement is our interface to Legacy. It is really sweet!! I am going to write a Blog post on it and I'll let you know when it's published. But if folks are Legacy users, they REALLY need to take a good look at Clooz 3.3. No data double entry!
Clooz by Ancestral Systems, LLC
ReplyDeleteThank you.
I have Clooz, and have had it since Liz did the early work on the program.
It is a "different" way of looking at the information that we are looking at.
Exciting to hear about the interface to Legacy. I saw that on your website when I found that example (probably a poor choice), but thank you for the links to the Videos. Perhaps other members of the community will want to look at Clooz 3.3 a little closer.
Thank you,
Russ
For me, listing of an Occupation would be a piece of information [fact] and labeled as 'Occupation;' the citation/source would be listed as a census record, or a city directory or a story told as personal knowledge, or from a book, etc.
ReplyDeleteDonna Willis Brown
ReplyDeleteLet me try again, as to WHAT you enter for the Occupation FACT (piece of information)
Doesn't Legacy have the Fact Name, a Date, a Location/Place, and a Description field?
The field names may be different, but information that expands or gives more details to the Occupation.
Occupation:
1940
Chester County, Pennsylvania
Farmer
I am trying to understand what and how you (or anyone) uses information in at 1940 US Federal Census. I get it that it will be documented with a Citation, but what do you enter into your Database, Legacy in your case?
Thank you,
Russ
Yes, Legacy has fields and a label. Here's one for my father for the 1940 census with the 'Occupation' label. I have listed the actual occupation in the 'Description' field.
ReplyDeleteEvent/Fact: Occupation
Description: Taxi Driver
Date: 1 Apr 1940
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, Oklahoma, United States
Donna Willis Brown
ReplyDeleteGreat, that is exactly what I was looking for. Excellent
Thank you
Russ